Perpetual ecosystem growth

[mehowbrainz]

What is the typical fee in the industry @vk_stex?

THORSwap charges 0.30%. I think 2% is waaaay too high, people will complain.

[mehowbrainz]

Stex charges 0.2%.

[bayrum]

Let’s add “1%” option and maybe 0.5%

[cryptocheshire]

Spot taker fees are usually around .2 - .3%

In this case, however, fees feed a positive feedback loop to attract more buyers. Which is not the case when you pay an exchange for matchmaking.

You can’t compare the two.

[0x3639]

I voted 2%, but wish I could vote 1%. @sumamu do we have any examples of this in the wild where we can compare fees? Something more akin to a marketing fly wheel rather than fees paid in a CEX.

Overall I think this strategy is excellent. All these discussions about submitting AZs for posting on Twitter will go away. People who generate good contact will attract buyers and get rewarded.

Great initiative IMO.

[mehowbrainz]

Should Zenon.Org fork it, integrate Attribute event into it (so the referrer can be tracked throughout his entire journey on any zenon.org page), and parse the marketer’s built Attribute link zenon address so it can inject it as the referrer address dynamically? This way Attribute links also support paying marketers for referrals. The Attribute dashboard will also be able to show you how much your referred buyer swapped to ZNN so you can publicly show off the value you generated. We’d also create custom funnels for the entire flow to improve on the UX. The forked bridge would remain open sourced.

• Yes, I would use the forked version + Attribute
• Yes, but I wouldn’t use the forked version + Attribute
• No

[zyler9985]

If one of our selling points is being a feeless network, I think this fee should be small, similiar to thorchain’s 0.3%
Not sure though. If ppl could explain the pros and cons of 0.3, 0.5, 1? We do have AZ to pay marketers, so 2 seems excessive. I’m not an expert at this though.

[sol]

Interesting idea. I’ve got a couple questions/comments:

1. How do marketers register their referral address?
   • Will the referral code → zenon address lookup be performed on-chain or in an orchestrator-specific database?
   • How does that information propagate to others running orchestrator code?
2. I would be more comfortable with a 1% sell tax, split 67/33 or 50/50.
3. Can the web app provide a referral form/field as well?
   • In case users don’t access the page with a specific link
   • Some people may want to manually enter the code when they swap
4. Do you think this solution will be compatible with other wallets, like Syrius Desktop?

[sumamu]

@mehowbrainz

What is the typical fee in the industry @vk_stex?

A better question to ask @vk_stex is how much does it cost to aquire a new user and what is the average purchase of a user.

@mehowbrainz

THORSwap charges 0.30%. I think 2% is waaaay too high, people will complain.

I understand that, but ever since I joined the community, most people complained about a lot of things, so that’s pretty much the norm. At least this time they can complain while the community is grown by this program and the WZNN price goes up.

@bayrum

Let’s add “1%” option and maybe 0.5%

Think of it this way, if the fee is too small for marketers to even consider it, the program will fail from the start, so it might as well be zero.

@cryptocheshire

In this case, however, fees feed a positive feedback loop to attract more buyers. Which is not the case when you pay an exchange for matchmaking.

On point @cryptocheshire.

@0x3639

Overall I think this strategy is excellent. All these discussions about submitting AZs for posting on Twitter will go away. People who generate good contact will attract buyers and get rewarded.

Exactly, everyone will be welcome and all results are verified automatically and rewarded.

@zyler9985

If one of our selling points is being a feeless network, I think this fee should be small, similiar to thorchain’s 0.3%

The network will still be feeless, the swaps from WZNN to ZNN will also be feeless. The only fee is paid by sellers. Once a user sells, the incentives for that user to continue to bring value to the ecosystem drops, but at least with this fee someone else will be incentivized to bring value.

@sol

How do marketers register their referral address?

At first, they’ll just have to generate a short link with their address embedded. If things get messy and referrals find way to use that to cheat the system, then we’ll start adding conditions such as: holding at least X ZNN, having been a holder for at least X days, eventually having to submit an AZ proposal to get approved as a referral.

@sol

• • How does that information propagate to others running orchestrator code?

Everything will be onchain, verifiable and trackable.

@sol

• I would be more comfortable with a 1% sell tax, split 67/33 or 50/50.

The economical problem is that whichever fee is set initially will be the maximum fee that’ll ever be able to set. So it’s better to start with a higher fee and lower it as the price/WZNN increases than have the program fail from the start if the incentives are too low.

@sol

• In case users don’t access the page with a specific link

The fee remains in the bridge contract and the user doesn’t get the bonus for using the referral link. A banner can be displayed to the user to look for a referral link in order to receive the bonus.

@sol

• • Some people may want to manually enter the code when they swap

It won’t be possible, they’ll have to use a referral link.

@sol

1. Do you think this solution will be compatible with other wallets, like Syrius Desktop?

Sure, it’s onchain and everything should work on any wallet/platform if implemented correctly.

BONUS:

Users in the community are rather experience and could register themselves as referrals, so that when they swap ZNN to WZNN to sell, they’ll still pay the fee, but if they don’t sell or buy back, they can use their own referral link when swapping the WZNN back to ZNN and have the entire fee refunded, as long as they return to the ecosystem.

Reality check:

Let’s face it, even a 10% fee after a 5X is cheaper than a 0% fee after a -90%.

[coinselor]

I voted 3%.

Keep in mind this only applies to using the multichain NoM bridge going from wZNN to ZNN. You could still find a buyer doing a P2P trade using an atomic swap directly within syrius in a trustless fashion.

Liquidity should concentrate around Orbital and the NoM bridge initially. But long-term, other liquidity-building solutions might ask for Orbital funds and become the main hub for ZNN trading.

[sumamu]

@coinselor

Liquidity should concentrate around Orbital and the NoM bridge initially. But long-term, other liquidity-building solutions might ask for Orbital funds and become the main hub for ZNN trading.

Even at this point Orbital can be extended to other liquidity solutions. As long as the user has a ZTS or another LP token that can be wrapped to ZTS, Orbital can allow them to stake it.

[cryptocheshire]

CAC per new retail trader for a big CEX ranges around $35 -$65

[sumamu]

@cryptocheshire

CAC per new retail trader for a big CEX ranges around $35 -$65

Thank you, very good info! Now all we need is the average purchase value of a user and we could calculate a minimum fee at the current price of ZNN.

[mehowbrainz]

Is there a possibility for a dynamic fee which adjusts based on the size swapped?

[sumamu]

@mehowbrainz

Is there a possibility for a dynamic fee which adjusts based on the size swapped?

Unfortunately no. This whole idea came after the bridge PR was created so nothing was specifically implemented for it, but luckily somehow it fit perfectly.

[mehowbrainz]

@sumamu

At first, they’ll just have to generate a short link with their address embedded. If things get messy and referrals find way to use that to cheat the system, then we’ll start adding conditions such as: holding at least X ZNN, having been a holder for at least X days, eventually having to submit an AZ proposal to get approved as a referral.

How will we be able to detect cheating?

[sumamu]

@mehowbrainz

How will we be able to detect cheating?

At worst cheaters would get their own fee back, so there’s no incentive to cheat. It’s a zero-sum game.

[mehowbrainz]

Thanks for this benchmark. I can’t wait to see if I can beat that with clever inbound campaigns/channels.

[mehowbrainz]

@sumamu

At worst cheaters would get their own fee back, so there’s no incentive to cheat. It’s a zero-sum game.

Right thought the marketer spending budget on the acquisition could be losing. I will try to think of a way to see if Attribute can help here with some monitoring stats which can clue in on hijacking…

[sumamu]

@mehowbrainz

Right thought the marketer spending budget on the acquisition could be losing. I will try to think of a way to see if Attribute can help here with some monitoring stats which can clue in on hijacking…

Check this out:

@sumamu

Why wouldn’t the buyers just use their own addresses as referrals and get the whole 3%?

• buyers who are not aware of the program, won’t even think about this possibility
• buyers who become aware of the program won’t be able to easily get a referral address
• if things get out of hand, there are technical solutions to prevent it and we’ll cross that bridge when we get to it

@sumamu

If things get messy and referrals find way to use that to cheat the system, then we’ll start adding conditions such as: holding at least X ZNN, having been a holder for at least X days, eventually having to submit an AZ proposal to get approved as a referral.

If cheating becomes an issue, we’ll find ways to overcome it.